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| 2B Umpire Cuzzi rules Braun out; Segura begins his retreat. |
Segura, meanwhile, thought he had been declared out and began jogging towards the Brewers first base dugout, staying within the baseline (not to be confused with his base path) between first and second base (or technically, 2nd-1st). As the Cubs were clearly not expecting a play at first base, Segura, upon realizing his error, ran into first base without a throw.
Play continued with one out (Braun) and Segura assuming R1's role at first base. After a Rickie Weeks strikeout, Segura attempted to steal second base and was thrown out to end the inning.
Q: This group case play is worth one point and like Case Play 2013-02 expires Sunday night; to secure your Case Play point, be sure to include your username in your reply (or as your posting name)—Were the umpires correct in their enforcement, both in ruling Braun out, Segura safe and allowing Segura to return to first base? If not, how should play have resumed?
Video: Segura's adventure: R2 becomes R1 before finally being retired attempting to return as R2 (MIL)
Here's a hint (that might equally be a red herring): In the early 1900s, former Milwaukee Brewer (yes, it's true) Germany Schaefer stole first base in his ongoing bid to entertain fans and win a game. According to SABR, Schaefer's antics in stealing first during an August 4, 1911 Detroit Tigers and White Sox game on HOF umpire Tom Connolly's watch led to a key MLB rule change...
I thought the initial call should have been Braun called out for passing a runner
ReplyDeleteOK, I'm way confused, but like Al says, shouldn't Braun be out for passing the runner? Then why was Segura not out when he was clearly off the bag, tagged by the Cubs player while heading to the first base dugout? Personally I think they should both be out, then again I'm not an umpire so I guess I'm missing something here.
ReplyDeleteWell clearly, Braun is out for passing the lead runner and Segura is out for being tagged while off of second base (Valbuena tags Segura twice here, once when he is on the base, then Valbuena tags Braun, and then he tags Segura a second time, this time as Segura leaves second base).
ReplyDeleteBut I know that we're getting at the issue of Segura running back to first base, so ASSUMING that Cuzzi didn't pull a Tim McClelland 2009 ALCS call and Segura was never tagged while off the base at second, I don't think we have abandonment nor running the bases in reverse order as that rule says something about "in order to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game" and Segura clearly is not intending to do that. So that's the stalemate. He's not SUPPOSED to run in reverse order, but he's not actually violating the reverse order rule by doing it.
Segura is the lead runner in this situation and Braun is the following runner. OBR rule7.03 a, tells us that "... if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner is out and the preceding runner is entitled to the base". Therefore, Braun is the one ruled out (as seen in the video, point at who is out).
ReplyDeleteNow the fun begins, Rule 7.01comment throws us an interesting twist. In the video, Segura legally acquired second base by way of the steal (first time). The pitcher assumes his position on the pitchers plate and then picks off Segura. Segura, after the pitcher takes his position, "may not return to a previously occupied base".
Curiously, the umpires called time upon being requested. They should have done nothing and waited for Segura to be tagged and then signaled him out.
Braun is out because he can't occupy the same base as the preceding runner. Segura was initially safe but appeared to be tagged off second. Play resumes
ReplyDelete(username yawetag) Braun was out for passing another runner the moment Segura slid past him. Once Segura ran toward first base, he should have been called for running the bases backward.
ReplyDelete1) So according to 7.01 comment, should Segura been called out immediately upon touching first, or was he at only at risk of being tagged out while on first? 2) What prevents time from being called?
ReplyDeleteFirst off, Braun did not pass Segura on the base path because Segura was laid out on the ground, his feet nearest to third base. Therefore, an out may not be called on Braun on that account for passing a runner on the basepath. However, Braun cannot occupy 2nd base at the same time as Segura because 2nd base was occupied already by Segura, even though Braun got to the bag first. Segura was the lead runner so 2nd base was his until he would have occupied 3rd, which he never did.
ReplyDeleteNow, since both were tagged, Braun was correctly called out. However, the umpire, in all the frenzy, missed a probable out call on Segura for being tagged while off the base. My opinion is that there should have been two outs recorded here. However, the umpires did get the call right by not calling Segura out for going back to 1st. They got most of this play right so I give them some credit. I had to watch it a couple of times to get the whole thing right! Lots of possible calls/scenarios in this play.
The NFHS rule says the runner "is entitled to this base...until he legally touches the next base..." By that rule Segura would be out. But the MLB rule does not mention that provision: "He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base." Braun wasn't forced and Segura wasn't intending to cause a travesty. I think the right call was made.
ReplyDeleteIf both were touching the same base, neither runner can be past each other, so Braun cannot be called out for passing Segura. However, Braun should be out for occupying a base that Segura has the right to be at. Then Segura was tagged a second time while off the base, so in the end both should have been out.
ReplyDeleteCuzzi was correct in declaring Braun out because when two runners occupy the same base, the trail runner is out when tagged except in the case of a force play. As far as letting Segura return to 1st base, that's fine as well because the ball was live the entire time and the Cubs did not make a play on him. The only way Segura could be declared out is if the umpires felt that he ran the bases backwards to make a travesty of the game.
ReplyDeleteusername: clawdad
ReplyDeleteWere the umpires correct? I would have to answer no.
Braun out @ 2nd - Yes (7.01, 7.03a)
Segura safe at 2nd - Not correct, as in the video he was tagged while off the base
Allowing Segura to stay at first - Not correct. 7.01 says "entitled... until put out or forced to vacate for another runner legally entitled to that base." No other runner was legally entitled to 2nd base, so he was not forced to vacate and return to first. He was also not put out (even though it appears he was tagged prior to heading to first but it was missed). I suppose you could call 7.08 (abandonment) and get the out there.
Play should have continued with 2 out and Weeks at bat.
Steve brown.... BALLER STATUS!!!
ReplyDeleteUsername: I can't figure out how to join but I love this website =)
ReplyDeleteAfter browsing the rulebook here are the two relevant rules:
7.03 (a):Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.
- Here, Braun is correctly called out by 2B Umpire Cuzzi. Two players occupying a single base does not bring up a passing scenario so that argument is moot.
7.08 (i):If a runner runs bases in reverse order for the purposes of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game, he is out and "Time" shall be called, as the ball is dead.
7.08(i) Comment: If a runner touches an unoccupied base and then thinks the ball was caught or is decoyed into returning to the base he last touched, he may be put out running back to that base, but if he reaches the previously occupied base safely he cannot be put out while in contact with that base.
-Segura was clearly not attempting to deceive the defense by running in reverse order and because he reached first without being put out (assuming the second time he was tagged he was still in contact with second base), the umpires ruled correctly in letting play resume.
gkiewitt
ReplyDeleteYes, Cuzzi was correct in ruling the trail runner out at 2nd base. 7.03(a)
Yes, Segura can return to a previously occupied base.7.08(i) and 7.08(i)Comment
I must agree with those who state that both Braun and Segura should have been called out. It appears that Cuzzi missed seeing the second tag on Segura which would have equated to him being 'put out running back to [1B]"(7.08(i)Comment). In lieu of not being ruled out with the tag, Segura is entitled to keep 1st base as he was not intentionally running the bases backwards but clearly was acting on the assumption that he was already out.
ReplyDeleteusername - josh7377
ReplyDeletei think segura should have been called out, but because of 7.01 not because of 7.08 (i), [i'm leaving the judgement part out because honestly i don't think cuzzi saw the tag, he was too busy pointing at braun, because he never acknowledged a safe/out call on segura---at least when mcclelland screwed this up in the lcs, he made a call on both runners].
segura legally acquired second. Pitcher took the rubber on a subsequent play, 7.01 tells me that at no time now can segura ever legally acquire first. Because he did, he should be out.
Braun was correctly called out by Cuzzi, as both runners did occupy the base at the same time. I don't think rule (7.08i Comment) applies because Segura could not have thought he HAD to return to first- he started the play legally occupying second. Besides the fact he was tagged off the base, I think he should be called out under 7.08 i.
ReplyDelete(1) There's no passing -- both runners were touching the same base. Segura's slide was to the third base side of second. Braun was on second and was called out before Segura left the base.
ReplyDelete(2) Segura was tagged off the base, both should've been declared out. Looks like U2 was completely focused on calling Braun out, though, and missed it.
(3) I think 7.01 Comment is important. Segura had title to second base. Him heading to the dugout should've been ruled abandonment, IMO. He was no longer trying to advance and was heading to his dugout. 7.08(a) comment covers this. Just because he took a route to his dugout between first and second base, IMO, is irrelevant. It's not HIS "base path" because he was on second to start the play. He had title to second base and once he has that, he shouldn't be allowed to go back to a previous base.
(4) Did anyone notice the first base coach grab Segura when he tried to leave first base?
If you want to send me an e-mail, we can make that happen :)
ReplyDeleteIf Segura would of been called out by being tagged off the base then how would they both have been out since Braun would of been legally occupying 2nd base? Not sure I agree with your #2 statment and that would be a first time i disagree with you.
ReplyDeleteOn your number 4 statment could Segura have been called out for the coaches assisting him?
After watching the video a little closer I think I know what you ment. He was tagged on the bag first which would make Braun out. Then tagged off the bag next which would make Segura out. I had it the other way around which made me confused. I was also suprised that the brewer annoucers were right. As a brewer fan I dont like Bill Schroeder.
ReplyDeleteusername: gregoryakoch
ReplyDeleteThe umpires got the call right. The running the bases backwards only applies if it was done to deceive the defense. So assuming he was only tagged when in contact with second (or first) base, the umps were correct.
Well Said Rich!! Abondonment, running bases in reverse order, or simply being tagged off the base. Assistance by 1st base coach... I think i can get 4 outs here and end the game. If only they'd carry over to the next inning!
ReplyDeleteI thought i was the only one who saw that.... I would go so far as to say there was obstruction in a rundown.... IMO r2's path was impeded. Also for the record.... This runner was not running bases in reverse order to confuse the defence or make a mockery of the game, however i doubt if you called him out for running bases backwards you would get an arguement
ReplyDeleteSince the tags were in the order Segura-Braun-Segura and the video doesn't clearly show whether Segura was touching 2B, there are a few options here.
ReplyDelete1. If Segura left 2B before he was tagged for the first time, Braun is out for passing Segura, and Segura is out as he was tagged.
2. If Segura left 2B between his first tag and Braun's tag, Braun is out for passing Segura, and Segura is out under rule 7.08(i) for running the bases in reverse order.
3. If Segura left 2B between Braun's tag and Segura's second tag, Braun is out as Segura had a right to 2B, and Segura is out as he was tagged.
4. If Segura left 2B after he was tagged for the second time, Braun is out as Segura had a right to 2B, and Segura is out under rule 7.08(i).
If Segura never touched second base, the ruling gets a bit more interesting.
5a. As Segura is between 1B and 2B, and he attempted to touch 2B but missed, Braun is out for passing Segura and Segura is out as soon as he is tagged for the first time. There is no need for an appeal, as whether Segura touched 2B but left before he was tagged or outright missed 2B is irrelevant to the results of the play.
tl;dr: Both are out.
I don't think the runners pass here. I think Braun is called out for occupying second while Segura occupied it.
ReplyDeleteCuzzi missed that Segura left the base. When he left the base, he was promptly tagged, and should have declared that he was out. Seemed like Cuzzi had more of a focus on declaring Braun out, here.
To me, I think Segura returning to first is a gray area. He could be returning to his dugout, and then moments later, he could be returning to first base. Considering that his original target on the play was third [and he was tagged at second!], I think that I would have called him out for abandonment [considering he also attempted to leave the field, before he was illegally contacted by the 1B coach].
I believe that the umpires were partially correct in their ruling. I believe Braun should have been called out based on Rule 7.03(a). Both runners simultaneously occupied 2B therefore Braun is out because Segura was entitled to the base. I believe Segura should also have been called out for one of many reasons. The first possible explanation is that I believe Segura was off the base when tagged that second time, in which he should have been called out. In addition, Segura could have been called out for abandoning his base based on Rule 708 (a-2). Segura also could have been called out based on the fact that the first-base coach did give him a small push to assist him back to first base. If I were an umpire in this game, I would have ruled both runners out based on these facts.
ReplyDeleteusername : brettjwhaley. The umpire got the play partially correct. Take this as a lesson to keep your eye on the ball. Braun is declared out according to Rule 7.03(a). I believe they erred in allowing Segura to remain at first. Segura should have been declared out according to Rule 7.01 or declared out as he was tagged off the bag the 2nd tag. Play should have resumed with the Cubs at bat.
ReplyDeleteMrMLBSmith -- based on what was "seen" by the umpires, Braun is out. Had they "seen" the second tag, Segura is also out.
ReplyDeleteWhile Germany Schaefer's play is similar to this play it is not the same type of play. Research indicates that in 1920 baseball passed 7.08i which states that you can't run the bases backward to confuse the defense or making a travesty of the game. I don't think 7.08i applies here.
ReplyDeleteI think we have a case of abandonment here. Segura is not advancing to his next base, he's retreating to 1B, a base he previously occupied before he stole 2b.
Segura was obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base. He stole 2b, then got in a rundown between 2b and 3b, Segura (R2) and Braun (R1) both occupied 2B, Braun is tagged out because he was not a legal occupant of 2B.
Segura was tagged out, but the call was missed. Segura then retreated back to his dugout, which also happened to be in the base path between 2b and 1b. Since Segura already legally occupied 2b, he can't go backward in this instance.
He is out for abandoning his effort to touch the NEXT base. it's obvious that he's heading back to his dugout until the first base coach tells him to stand on 1B because he sees the Cub player giving chase because there's nobody covering 1B. There should've been two outs on the play. So play proceeds, two out, next batter. I use 7.08a Comment for my decision.
Kirk Gibson and Cody Ross got ejected
ReplyDeletehttp://gyazo.com/3a77ed946430fdac4e4749c4b271eb16
Chad Fairchild just ejected Cody Ross and Kirk Gibson. Ross threw his bat after a called third strike and was tossed then he went absolutely irate.
ReplyDeleteThat would be great... I just can't find your email address anywhere
ReplyDeleteYou can send a line to info {at} close call sports . com (all one word of course).
ReplyDelete7.03 Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while
ReplyDeletethe ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following
runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled
to the base. Enough said. As for him returning to first as long as the runner touches second before he touches first, he should be able to do so.
As has already been said, Cuzzi got the first part of the play correct with the application of 7.03(a) and calling Braun out.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Segura is not entitled to be able to return to 1B. 7.01 comment applies. Segura legally acquired 2B and the pitcher was in contact with the rubber following the acqusition (as evidenced by Braun's base on balls). Jaksa-Roder states that 'once a pitcher is in-contact with the rubber, a runner, regardless of purpose, may not return beyond his occupied base. If he attempts to do so, he is declared out.' Even if the purpose of his return to first is abandonment of 2B and his path happens to take him to 1B, these are irrelevant. Segura should also have been called out on the play..
Here's a question, how is this scored? and how does it affect the the TB of Segura? I mean does he lose a base for abandoning second and returning to first...
ReplyDeleteI like 7.01 Comment for this play as well.
ReplyDeleteBT_Blue
ReplyDeleteI think Cuzzi's mistake was that he got to close to the play. That is why he missed the second tag on Segura. There is a very strong case for abandonment here and is probably the correct call.
Once againwe have a case of strange *@$^ happening and surprising an umpire crew. Kind of surprused there didn't seem to be any argument from the Cubs.
The rule about a runner being prohibited from running the bases in reverse order applies only when he does so expressly "for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game," as was the case with Germany Schaefer. In this instance, that was not the case; Segura simply ran to the nearest unoccupied island of safety after Braun, the following runner (meaning the runner behind him,) was properly called out at second. Umpire Phil Cuzzi should have Number 1. signaled "safe" on the initial tag attempt of Segura by the infielder, as he was the "preceding" or lead runner and therefore entitled to the base; and Number 2., called Segura out as soon as he was tagged while off the bag immediately after the tag on Braun. Cuzzi neglected to make the initial safe call on the tag of Segura as he was standing on the base (which might have persuaded him to remain at second instead of scampering back to first) and then just plain missed the play when Segura was tagged a half step off the second base bag before he ran back to first. Of course, Cuzzi did not have the luxury of viewing the play repeatedly in slow motion while sipping a beer, and got at least part of it right. I'm surprised that Cubs manager Dale Sveum didn't object more strenuously that Segura should have been called out right after Braun was - but even major league managers are clueless when it comes to the rules, so I guess I shouldn't be THAT surprised.
ReplyDeleteSveum had already been ejected at that point LOL. Acting Manager Jamie Quirk did come out but it was a very calm conversation with Cuzzi. It seemed like he was more getting an explanation than anything and once he heard what Cuzzi had to say he seemed content.
ReplyDeleteBill Schroeder has been talking about the play the last 2 games saying the umpires got it wrong!
ReplyDeleteUsername: FinfanJr
ReplyDeleteI have no objections to Cuzzi's ruling.
I don't see how you can't go get an out for abandonment here. I understand abandonment typically isn't called until a runner has at least left fair territory heading for a dugout, but when dealing with 7.01 comment, I think that leads to a special alternate definition of abandonment. In no way was this running the bases in reverse order to create a travesty of the game.
ReplyDeleteDid Cuzzi miss the tag of R2 prior to this whole fiasco? Yes, absolutely. But this whole "too close to the play" nonsense is exactly that. The play was over and done with. Cuzzi approached so that there was absolutely no confusion about which runner was out and who was still safe (I suppose R2 missed that memo). You have to get close enough so that the runners can tell who you're pointing at when you're saying "you...out; you...safe"
Had he had this play again, perhaps he would have grabbed OBS on F4 to avoid this whole mess, lol
-ump_24
Both runners should have been called out. So a double play
ReplyDeleteBob Abouy:
ReplyDeleteThey correctly ruled Braun out when tagged at 2nd as it was already occupied and did not protect him. Segura should have been ruled out for abandoning his effort to run the bases. Also, he may not return to a previously occupied base after having legally acquired possession of the next base and play resumed(the next pitch).
Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base. The umpire ruled correctly is calling out Braun and Segura safe. I think if they called Segura out for abandoning his effort, I could have bought that too.
ReplyDelete7.03(a) is the correct rules citation on Braun's out call. I hadn't thought of it until StudentOfTheGame mentioned it, but I believe he is correct that Segura had acquired 2B and has violated 7.01 Comment when he retreated to 1B. However, the rule book does not mention a penalty for violation of 7.01 Comment. Since I don't have access to Jaska/Roder, I'll defer to Student's reference.
ReplyDeleteSegura ended up getting a CS of 3B and Braun CS of 2B, so Segura kept his TB.
ReplyDeleteA few things went bad here Braun passed Segura...Braun should've been out for that. Then Segura was off the bag while tagged, an out right there as well. For the purpose of the play, yes Braun is out as well as Segura for abandoning the base. A base in which he clearly attained and then proceeded to run in the opposite direction..which in essence did momentarily confuse the defense. 2 outs on that play. Let's go next pitch
ReplyDelete