This is Vic Carapazza (85)'s second ejection of 2012.
This is Marty Foster (60)'s fifth ejection of 2012.
Vic Carapazza now has 5 points in the UEFL (5 Previous + 3 AAA + -1 Penalty + -2 Incorrect [Crewmate] = 5).
Marty Foster now has 8 points in the UEFL (8 Previous + 2 MLB + -2 Incorrect Call [Crewmate] = 8).
Crew Chief Jeff Kellogg now has 7 points in the UEFL's Crew Division (7 Previous + 0 Incorrect = 7).
*After review, Quality of Correctnes has been reversed by the UEFL Appeals Board (3-0).
This is Marty Foster (60)'s fifth ejection of 2012.
Vic Carapazza now has 5 points in the UEFL (5 Previous + 3 AAA + -1 Penalty + -2 Incorrect [Crewmate] = 5).
Marty Foster now has 8 points in the UEFL (8 Previous + 2 MLB + -2 Incorrect Call [Crewmate] = 8).
Crew Chief Jeff Kellogg now has 7 points in the UEFL's Crew Division (7 Previous + 0 Incorrect = 7).
*After review, Quality of Correctnes has been reversed by the UEFL Appeals Board (3-0).
UEFL Standings Update
These are the 126th and 127th ejections of 2012.
This is the 53rd player ejection of 2012. Prior to his ejection, Reynolds was 0-3 with 3 Ks in the contest.
This is the 62nd Manager ejection of 2012.
These are the Baltimore Orioles' 3rd and 4th ejections of 2012.
This is Mark Reynolds' first ejection since September 12, 2010 (Gerry Davis; QOC = Correct).
This is Buck Showalter's first ejection since April 22nd (Angel Campos; QOC = Incorrect).
This is Vic Carapazza's first ejection since August 15 (Ian Kinsler; QOC = Correct).
This is Marty Foster's first ejection since June 24 (Clint Hurdle; QOC = Correct).
Wrap: Orioles at Tigers, 8/17/12
Video: Kellogg rules out, reverses to safe after consultation; Reynolds and Showalter incensed, get ejected
These are the 126th and 127th ejections of 2012.
This is the 53rd player ejection of 2012. Prior to his ejection, Reynolds was 0-3 with 3 Ks in the contest.
This is the 62nd Manager ejection of 2012.
These are the Baltimore Orioles' 3rd and 4th ejections of 2012.
This is Mark Reynolds' first ejection since September 12, 2010 (Gerry Davis; QOC = Correct).
This is Buck Showalter's first ejection since April 22nd (Angel Campos; QOC = Incorrect).
This is Vic Carapazza's first ejection since August 15 (Ian Kinsler; QOC = Correct).
This is Marty Foster's first ejection since June 24 (Clint Hurdle; QOC = Correct).
Wrap: Orioles at Tigers, 8/17/12
Video: Kellogg rules out, reverses to safe after consultation; Reynolds and Showalter incensed, get ejected
80 comments :
Very stupid announcers. Everything is aye okay while the call is an out even though they say themselves he saw safe, but once that call gets changed, it's how dare you make a call against my team. Typical two faced POSs.
Zack Greinke learned this the hard way and so did Reynolds-don't spike things to protest calls!
They don't mess up the box score often, but that's two in a row. And yes, the Orioles announcing is historically bad.
HP Umpire Lance Barrett just tossed Cardinals 3B Coach Jose Oquendo for arguing balls and strikes.
Jim Palmer is 100% right on one thing: The 'equipment violation' vs. ejection is incredibly inconsistent. This is totally unacceptable.
carrapazza has to stop acting like a young ump - its an equipment violation not an ejection if that were any other umpire on the staff he would not have been ejected
Why did Foster eject Showalter? It was Timmons and Kellogg that were having the conversation about the call - maybe when Foster was protecting his fellow umpires Showalter said something to him but very rarely do you see umpire not involved in the call eject a player or manager except of course for cowboy joe west but thats an exception- it happened yesterday too with the tschida mat tingly ejection
First, Showalter was screaming at Foster, that's probably why he ejected Buck. Secondly, Carapazza was 100% percent right in what he did, the ejection was blatantly merited.
Good for Carapazza. He's not afraid to handle business. And this, no matter what the genius announcers say, is an ejection at any level of baseball. Hey, Mark, don't spike the glove and you don't get run. Easy as that.
That is some brutal commentary. "That's an equipment violation, you don't get thrown out for that. If you spike your helmet you get fined, but you don't get thrown out." This, to me, is the ultimate in hack announcing, when you say something that, as a person working in professional baseball, you know is 100% false but still say it with the conviction that you act like it must be true. They literally lied to their viewers, because there is so way that saying that statement is a mistake, or an error. When things like this happen I get curious if MLB steps in and points out how dumb they sound, and how factually inaccurate they're being, or if it just goes on ignored.
Jim Palmer says nobody saw Reynolds spike his glove? REALLY?!?! If you wish to distort the facts, at least try to be a little subtle about it.
The equipment violation is for the batter at the plate, NOT for fielders!!!!
It should be an equipment violation if a player throws equipment and he is not doing it to show up the umpire. Otherwise, see ya!
I've watched the play a few times and I'm not convinced Kellogg got it wrong in the first place.
If you stop the video at 1:55, the ball is in the glove and his foot is still in contact with the bag. The original call was correct.
Leyland of all people wants the umpires to get together to talk about the call? Isn't this the same guy who threw a five-minute tantrum last year because they did just that?
Also, after looking at the replay I think the original call was right. It looks like the tip of Reynolds' foot was still on the base when he caught the ball.
Yup, I'm with the last two guys. Someone want to put me to work? :)
Jim Palmer thinks Showalter might challenge the call? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't protest on a judgment call! Maybe the umpiring crew should protest this broadcasting.
That announcing was putrid. Not to be a troll, but I think those guys gave me cancer.
On the other hand, Carapazza got the ejection right, but why on earth was Buck so angry at Marty Foster? Of all the umpires he should have been mad at, it stands to reason that Foster would be the LEAST likely target (Kellogg/Timmons overturn the out and Carapazza ejects Reynolds).
First, Palmer needs to learn some rules about protesting a game. UmpsRule is correct, you cant protest judgement calls.
These announcers just got the whole thing wrong. First off, you throw equuiptment (mind you, in protest of that call), hit the showers Reynolds, second, protest the game? Where the hell do they get that from? MLB would laugh if a protest was filed. Good to see the umps get together and get the call right, announcers, well the video says it all, terrible.
At first it looked like they got the call right. They changed it got it wrong. His toe was still on the bag.
We blast the umpires all the time for these kind of situations, you can't blame marty and vic they did good, i think this was on the cc. plus his angle is not right, he should be on the line, how is he going to see the foot come off when his body is blocking it.
cont. his the umps viewpoint of the play. if you had a better angle u would need to ask for timmons help. this reminds me of leyland getting ejected by rapunao against the blue jays last year.
Sure I'll put u too work Cuse I to think Kellogg had it right the first time therefore I CHALLENGE this ruling
he got it right before they should not have changed the call, bad break for the o's. pause it at 43 seconds. his toes are on the base then seconds later off the bag.
His toe was on the bag and the ball is clearly in his glove before he steps off. If that is not an out then most double-play pivots aren't outs either.
Re: the poster that says it was a judgement call: this was an appeal situation, and the CC wasn't in position to make an appeal without the replay equipment, so he shouldn't have made it. Even if it is borderline, this likely falls in the "too close to overturn" category.
CHALLENGE
Umpsrule, I just want to say that your comments reflect what is wrong with umpiring these days. I am not justifying player actions, but umpires are not invincible. I have been an avid UEFL reader for a few years now, and just feel I need to say something. Umpires are not invincible. They make mistakes and need to be held accountable. Marty Foster picks so many fights, and had nothing to do with the play tonight. If Kellogg or Timmons tossed Buck, then fine. Marty joined the conversation AFTER the call was reversed and inserted himself in the argument. I have no doubt that is what Buck was angry about. Umpires need to maintain order and not contribute to the chaos. yes, buck was going to be eventually tossed, but marty foster should have had nothing to do with it. I agree that Reynolds deserved the thumb. But you need to realize that umps are not always correct and need to do a much better job of defusing the situation. Marty Foster is an absolute joke
Honestly, I understand going by the official box score, but when it is so obviously wrong, I think we need to be able to go with what the video says.
I recognize that Foster is not a good situation handler. To be honest, I think he should not have been talking to Buck, as we can see he was before the ejection. However, Buck's reaction left him with little choice.
Take responsibility....completely agreed on your comments. I don't think Reynolds should have been rung either. If he threw his glove AND was complaining, then toss him. But in this case, not worth ejecting him. It only added to the chaos.
I was going to say after the Campos fiasco (although there have been many Campos fiascoes) yesterday that 75% of full-time umpires are poor situation handlers, let alone the AAA umpires.
judgement call. This was on Jeff Kellogg. Bad. most of the time now a controversial call the manager that argues first will beg for a change. I feel sorry for buck. Im not evan an orioles fan. they said adding replay or making work in new york stadiums worth 3 million idk, but you can't replay that also then i guess you could but the game will be longer had this problem last year,. And marty foster easy dude! no need to yell back that will only make things worse seeing this everyone it was almost like the other umpire was fixing the other umpires issues. Vic tossed buck, marty had to explain that, Timmons had to explain for Kellogg, its a little of a mess.
No, ejecting Reynolds was very much the right move. If Reynolds is allowed to get away with what he did, other players will start doing it and the umpires will have more chaos to deal with.
I do hope we give the ejections to the right umpires vic and foster not kellogg forget the boxscore. We do have to be fair to the fans and the standings.
I'd like to point out that Reynolds was not ejected for the glove toss alone, (although I be ok with that). He also screamed bloody murder, and was then summarily tossed.
Jim palmer "I think, Im wondering if buck is going to protest this game." Serious dude its a judgement call. Protest balls and strikes. relax
The box score is brutally wrong here.
Re: the Carapazza ejection:
I am not an MLB umpire, and I'm not pretending to be one, but here's what I'd have done (not saying it's "right," per se, but it's an idea).
If you're gonna toss Reynolds (which I might not have done, but I don't think it's ludicrous), just walk up to him and say, "you're done; you're out of the game." At this point, he'll either leave or argue vehemently. Vehement argument = ejection mechanic.
I'm not saying umpires have to "hide" all ejections this way, but it was clear that this was a situation where things were gonna get hairy. If you're going to insist on tossing Reynolds for spiking the glove, do it without a big theatrical show.
Also, I've noticed that umpires are making multiple ejection mechanics these days. Call me crazy, but I always thought that the goal was one mechanic. Get the attention of the ejectee, make the mechanic (once), and be done. I don't like this "toss him, chase him down, point at him, make the mechanic more times, and then try to argue/have a discussion."
People have been complimentary of Vic recently. I'm pretty okay with him, but I disliked his handling of this particular situation.
You see in the video the second base umpire motions when the 1st baseman slams the glove down. Then you see the ejection as the 1st baseman opens his mouth and screams.
See ya later!
As for the call itself, I'm not sure.
But boy that broadcasting was hard to listen to!
If realistic instant replay was utilized here, the call would have stood as an out (at the very least with "inconclusive evidence to overturn") .. I agree with others here that in real speed, it looked like pulled foot... It took me a few extra views to realize that toe indeed held ... I think kellogg made a great call and even if we had (realistic) replay methods to uphold it.... I think someone ends up ejecting Leyland...if mlb wants to make instant replay work, there needs to be hefty penalties for ejections immediately after replay has been utilized ..if you want calls to be correct with replay as backup...you suck it up and live with the results if it doesn't go your way .. Not keep crying just to save face..i would almost guarantee that if umpires went to video review and uphold call, leyland acts a fool in attempt to make everyone know he is still unhappy with results and gets tossed ... It's kinda like a compulsive liar that tells the same false story enough they genuinely believe the lie is the truth even though any reasonable person would know it's a lie
I too, think the original call was correct, but Carapazza didn't have the angle - He was pretty much straight-lined. One of the problems with MLB umpires is their going down on one knee - can't react from down there.
looks like he held the bag- tough call, but they ended up getting it wrong (i think it was challenged somewhere already)...
as an umpiring mechanics note, is the correct position to be on one knee, like jeff was, or to be a set position, allowing you better opportunity to 'lean in' to see this situation in a case of an errant throw? thanks!
First off, the announcing in that clip is the biggest hack job I have ever heard. The Orioles should be embarrassed to have those two clowns behind a microphone.
I'm not convinced that the original call wasn't correct either. This is the problem though with the "Get it right" philosophy via the pow-wows. A lot of the time the original call was right, which it probably was in this case.
As for you clueless morons who think Reynolds shouldn't have been tossed. Just leave. Get out and don't come back. If he doesn't toss Reynolds, it sends the message that that behavior is acceptable. Act like an adult and a professional and quit throwing your glove like a child throwing a tantrum.
I checked the box "incorrect call" because I believe the original call at 1st was correct, the reversal, incorrect. On the ejection (slamming the glove) that call was indisputably correct. We need more boxes
Buck got tossed for pointing his finger at the umpire and gesturing, which makes sense. I still think it was quick, but definitely warranted.
I don't understand the inconsistency of the "equipment malfunction" ejection, or perhaps it is simply me. To be honest, it might not have been the glove slam but rather the "F***!" yelled in the direction of the umpires (though offhand I cannot recall if the ejection was immediate to the glove toss or a second or two after).
"I checked the box "incorrect call" because I believe the original call at 1st was correct, the reversal, incorrect. "
It was really close but in that instant (so close and so bang-bang) I am not sure how someone has a better view of it than the 1B umpire.
I'll give it to you RichMSN, and I think I agree with you, too. Challenge.
I was able to read the lips on the Showalter ejection.
Showalter moves Reynolds out of the way of the umpires to avoid an ejection (he did not know Reynolds was already gone). As he is moving him out of the way, Foster tells him "You know he's gone" Showalter yells "You're a b*^%#" towards Foster and he is immediatly ejected. Foster than says to Showalter "settle down, I didn't throw hi out, I didn't throw him out" Carapazza immediatly comes in and points to himself saying "I threw him out" Buck doesn't seem to care and continues to yell at Foster. Both these ejections were clearly deserved. Not only did Reynolds throw his golve, but he also yelled "f&^#" That will get you tossed everytime.
Kellogg has no guts! Let a fill in take care of business.
Or Kellogg had his back turned when Reynolds threw the glove.
Call me crazy but This was a 4 man crew working together handling stuff.... There is no reason to think the 1st baseman is going to go batsh*t crazy over this call.. Vic does the right thing.... Reynolds runs at Timmons and Kellog now this could get ugly so Vic and Foster run over to make sure stuff doesn't get out of hand. The only thing i'd like to see is maybe all of them get together and then call Showalter from the hole to tell him the bad news at least try to help the situation.
Another great learning tool!!
This ruling has been challenged and is under review by the UEFL Appeals Board.
I have to challenge the ejectors. There is clear and convincing evidence from the video that Carapazza ejected Reynolds and that Foster ejected Showalter. Kellogg did not perform a single ejection.
"*Though replays indicate 2B Umpire Vic Carapazza ejected Reynolds for throwing his glove and 3B Umpire Marty Foster ejected Showalter, the official box score presently specifies Kellogg as the ejector. Name of Ejector is therefore provisional and subject to change upon finalization of the Official Box score. Accordingly, points application will be held in abeyance until the conclusion of play."
The Name of Ejector(s) appeal has therefore been summarily deferred.
Ump Atty, very good comment about Kellog being down on one knee. I like the kneeling mechanic on bangers because I feel it gives me the steadiest look, however in this situation perhaps had he been standing he would have had a better look at Reynolds foot, and stood with his original call. A mechanic I was taught years ago, was to point and verbalize quite loudly, YES he held the bag, or something to that extent. A manager who is charging out to argue, hears that and will "sometimes change his mind, if he is knows you are aware of a close pulled foot.
I'm not sure F3 had firm control of the ball while his toe was on the bag, and there's no video angle looking into the glove.
Kellogg *did* give a "point" mechanic before the original out call. Wonder what was said in the pow-wow that convinced him to change the call.
jim palmer is one of the best commentators in the game- the original call was correct- he may have been off on a few points but is an overall good announcer- and no one saw Reynolds throw his glove only Carrapazza did non of the other umpires- In the ejection filled game in Pittsburgh when Kemp and Mattingly got tossed, Hanley Ramirez threw his bat after a strike out clearly showing up the umpire and Campos gave the indication of a fine- hard to tell but I think they made the right call initially but it makes sense that Timmons was the one you overturned it
Here's my question; Why did Foster interject into the conversation with Buck and Timmons/Kellogg? That's not his place to speak; that's more antagonizing/baiting Buck for a response/ejection. Also, it never seemed as if Kellogg asked for help; Timmons just got with him and discussed and talked him out of his original/ correct call
Mark Reynolds blasts the umpires after the game:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-mark-reynolds-unplugged-orioles-first-baseman-rips-umpires-after-reversed-call-20120817,0,192180.story
1. Jim Palmer is flat out unbearable.
2. What is Timmons thinking here? This is most definitely a tough call and I know I've missed my fair share with a pulled foot at 1st...but if you're going to interject yourself into a play and overturn a call at 1st, you have to be 110% sure.
3. To the admins...your judgement of correct/incorrect continues to baffle me!
First off, how can you overturn a call like that when you can't even tell for sure he was off the base. Second, I don't think he was. The top of his shoe is still on the base when his glove closes
Just wanted to point out that out/safe at bases are not judgement calls. A judgement call is something like a check-swing where the umpire must judge intent, etc. Safe/out have clear parameters that must be met. That's all.
"Just wanted to point out that out/safe at bases are not judgement calls. A judgement call is something like a check-swing where the umpire must judge intent, etc. Safe/out have clear parameters that must be met. That's all."
Congratulations. This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted on this site -- and that's an accomplishment in itself.
Rich i just wanted to tell you your opinions are not your opinions and this site is not about umnpiring!! Can i win for dumbest comment ever?
Epic comments by Reynolds....I'm not agreeing with everything he is saying, but he makes some great points - I am guessing that if he gets fined, his teammates will pick up the tab!
Marty Foster. The same hot-headed, thin-skinned, uneducated, angry joke he's always been.
If the other umpires' job is to get the manager away, what is the remedy when the umpire keeps charging the manager? Only a wannabe bully punk jumps at the manager with sloppy jaws flapping, while two other umpires hold the manager back.
If Marty Foster wants a piece of showalter, then he needs to grow a pair and get it without his posse backing him up. Be a man you punk.
If UEFL had a "like" button, I would click it on Rich's comment.
Although Reynolds was pissed on the Markakis play at HP in 1st, from the angle shown on DET feed, it appeared Avila had the plate blocked and made the tag before Markakis got any part of plate.
Timmons mechanics on that play will not go into any manual. He initially was on left side of plate to rule on the roller up the 1B line as to whether it was fair or foul, then after calling that fair, he hops behind the plate to get a better view and then makes another hop to avoid the sliding runner.
@ Zac from 8:45
Boy, that was harsh, but you are 100% percent right.
Well, let's hope Reynolds strikes out looking in half of his at-bats for the rest of the year. You may not like that, but guess what, maybe it would teach the players to zip it! After all, I doubt Torre will do much about it.
From the link above....
Mark Reynolds when asked if he thought he would be ejected for throwing his glove:
"That’s terrible. [Second-base umpire] Vic [Carapazza] has no authority to throw me out right there. All I did was an equipment violation. It’s a fine. You are supposed to point at it and the league offices decide what to do there. He just threw me out right there. I didn’t do anything wrong. If I go up to him and say something to him, that I shouldn’t say, that’s fine. Throw me out there for that. But you can’t throw me out for throwing my glove. What’s the difference between a guy throwing his helmet after a bad call? It’s just part of it and everybody goes on their way. He had no right to throw me out there. There’s just so many words I can’t say on this camera right now that I want to say."
Rat, rat, rat. Quit throwing your glove like a little baby. Carapazza absolutely has the authority to eject his sorry ass, and I'm glad he did.
I am tired of umpires getting dumped on by rat players/managers, announcers with their heads planted firmly in their asses, and idiotic fans who blindly follow what each of the two former groups have to say.
I'd like to second RichMSN's comment above as well. If you don't think a safe/out call at a base is a judgment call, you are just plain stupid.
This is getting ridiculous. Instead of crew conferences, which as we can see sometimes end up doing more harm than good, why doesn't MLB just use instant replay here? As soon as Kellogg made this call, a 5th umpire (or whoever) could immediately begin reviewing the call and would have seen that Kellogg got it right.
People on this site love to talk about how much they support umpires, but by denying these guys the use of replay, you are actually setting them up to look like fools. What kind of support is that? Could someone like RichMSN or BAPACop please answer that?
Do you really think Tim Timmons enjoys looking incompetent at his job? How about Tim Welke? Dare I say Jim Joyce?
Zac, it really has gotten old you calling everybody rats. You can stop now. I only see one rat..
Ruth had to deal with it, Aaron, Mickey, Ted, and even Reggie all had to deal with it.
Statistics will not relate. That's why baseball is so different. Era's can be compared and argued.
To now add computers, and now replay is just simply sad.
No longer will the Veteran get the calls. The rookie will get the same zone as the great Wade Boggs.
And of course the biggest crime will be all the whistling after bad calls like they do in Tennis.
Shit why even play the game? Just enter the stats into a computer and let it predict the entire season and W.S. Champion.
Why fly a kite when you can pop a pill?
Why bow and arrow hunt? Nuke'em!
Why cook your own food? Resturante's my friends!
Zac does not know what rat means. He calls everybody who ever gets thrown out a rat.
@Anon 9:01am, safe/out calls as to base runners are expressly mentioned as being judgment calls ("umpire's decision which involves judgment") in Rule 9.02(a).
I can't link from my phone, but there is a PDF copy of the 2012 Edition Rules on MLB.com if you wish to verify.
Challenge the Buck EJ. NEC, he's arguing the Reynolds ejection, not the play. See lips and post game conference.
Rum Jones 8/18 8:36 AM...
Please forgive me if I missed it while scanning earlier; but thanks Rum for pointing out the Timmons issue--what was he thinking getting involved in a bang bang play at 1B from HP? Doing that to the crew chief much less? Joe West mighta run him from the game!
I think Vic got the Reynolds ejection right.
I don't think it mattered much who tossed Buck; maybe they should have done it simultaneously like the three stooges--but he was going to go.
In the end, Timmons had better have bought the first round after the game--and probably dinner, too; what the heck was he thinking???
After review, the Original Ruling has been reversed, in part, and affirmed, in part, in a unanimous 3-0 decision by the UEFL Appeals Board. Three Appeals Board members voted to overturn Quality of Correctness.
Per Curiam Opinion:
(1)
Reason for Ejection is directly related to the reversed safe/out call; Pursuant to UEFL Rule 6-5-c-3, "Unsportsmanlike Conduct-NEC is only assigned when no other reason for ejection may be assessed." Because safe/out is appropriate, it supercedes the NEC designation. Reason is therefore affirmed.
(2)
In regards to Quality of Correctness, the board has found visual evidence to confirm the correctness of the original call on the field.
Concurring Opinion, RichMSN:
(1) Taking a play from a knee allows for no quick adjustments. Perhaps Kellogg felt he was screened by the body of the fielder coming towards him and didn't want to be the next Welke, where replay showed the fielder off by a few feet. Except this time, Kellogg got it exactly right.
This is the play where I'll make the exact same call and have everyone on the offence will beg for me to "get help." And I won't, because I know I'm the only person who is looking at the feet throughout the play whereas everyone looks at the play and then notices that, seconds later, that the fielder is no longer near the base.
(2) Getting help is so in vogue that here's another case of an umpire getting the call wrong after getting help. I'm sure that Leyland would've been run anyway, but here's an incorrect call (IMO) and 2 ejections after going for help. Some help. Thank goodness I don't have to worry about feeling forced to get such "help" myself.
Concurring Opinion, tmac:
Upon review, the 1st baseman's toe is connected to the bag after he catches the ball. It's my favorite optical illusion play. The call was originally correct and I am voting to overturn the original ruling.
Therefore, the Board reverses the Original Ruling, in part and affirms in part.
Confirmed: None
Upheld: None
Overturned: tmac, Albertaumpire, RichMSN
Deferred: None
Abstained: Gil (Posted Original Ruling), Jeremy (owns Carpazza), BillMueller, yawetag (owns Foster)
Quality of Correctness has been reversed, in part, and affirmed, in part, unanimously, 3-0.
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