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| Is this call "Foul"? |
This is Tim Welke (3)'s first ejection of 2012.
Tim Welke now has 4 points in the UEFL (0 Previous + 2 MLB + 2 Correct Call = 4).
Crew Chief Tim Welke now has 1 point in the Crew Division (0 Previous + 1 Correct = 1).
*This call is correct pursuant to precent established by Ejection 087: Dale Scott (3) and Ejection 006: Dale Scott (1), which govern false or misleading mechanics.
UEFL Standings Update
This is the 114th ejection of 2012.
This is the 57th Manager ejection of 2012.
This is the Yankees' 4th ejection of 2012, T-2nd in the AL East (BOS 7; NYY, TOR 4).
The Yankees coaching staff has been ejected four times this season, all against Detroit.
This is Joe Girardi's first ejection since June 2 (Bob Davidson; QOC = Incorrect).
This is Tim Welke's first ejection since August 3 (Jensen Lewis, Josh Beckett, Steve Smith; QOC = Correct).
Wrap: Yankees at Tigers, 8/9/12
Video: Dirks hits a blooper down the left field line, leading to some confusion as the play was ruled an RBI 2B
Video: Girardi is ejected after a vociferous argument with 3B Umpire Tim Welke over mechanics, QOC
Video: MLB's "Must See" Clip of this play, as announced by YES & WCBS (New York TV/Radio).
Looks at Bob Davidson being peacemaker again, almost getting his head taken off by Welke's right arm during the ejection. Looks like the suspension for Bob really did work.
ReplyDeleteAs a clarification, those ejections for Welke mentioned above are from August 3, 2010. He had one other ejection that season, when he tossed Jerry Hairston Jr. for arguing balls and strikes. If you ignore the three ejections from 2010 that stemmed from a bench-clearing situation, this is just Welke's second ejection since 2007.
ReplyDeleteI think Welke committed a bit of an umpire balk on this one :) He started then stopped. Still, clearly got the call right, gave Girardi lots of leeway, and then said "no more". Can't be much more clear with Girardi that it's time for him to stop. On one hand, players and managers say that getting the call right is the only thing that matters, but then they seem to argue incessantly after crews get together to ensure that the call is right. It kind of begs the question "we're doing everything we can, what else do you want?"
ReplyDeleteI'm left with the DiMuro/Dewayne Wise call where Girardi said that umpires are human and those calls are just part of the game. Only when it benefits his team, of course. Just another typical snake in the Bronx grass.
ReplyDeleteAs usual, quick to defend Welke and to jump on Girardi. ESPN has Welke saying "I acted too quickly" - just guessing he would only say that if he had originally called it foul. Also, in Girardi's presser, he said he was not upset that the ball was called fair, but that the run was allowed to score.
ReplyDeleteQOC should be on if the run should have scored, not on if the ball was fair or not....
With two outs and Ibanez misplaying the ball, I think that answer is obvious: the run definately would have scored!
ReplyDeleteSure hope Tim retires at year end -- he's lost it.
ReplyDeleteAPPEAL, BRUDDA
ReplyDeleteTHIS CALL WUZ GARBAGGE, HOMYS.
Again, when in doubt, call it "fair" or "in play" (on a questionable HR). If there is a huddle or replay that reverses the call, it is a simple matter to correct it. But there is all hades to pay if you do the opposite.
ReplyDeleteSince line calls will be added to replay review, it really makes sense to do that
ANON = LMS1953
The videos show pretty clearly that Ibanez never stopped trying to make a play on the ball. Therefore Welke's incorrect mechanic had literally no effect on anything as the play developed exactly as it would had he signaled fair initially.
ReplyDeleteif anything, the mechanic appeared to effect R2 more- he seemed to momentarily slow down.
ReplyDeleteBob Davidson has some pretty good moves for an old guy.
ReplyDeleteDid welke's left arm come up as well? On the video, it shows Welke's right arm come up and then immediately point fair. It does not show his left arm at the same time. If the left arm doesn't fly up along with the right, I have difficulty understanding how any player is going to be mislead.
"I think Welke committed a bit of an umpire balk on this one :) He started then stopped. Still, clearly got the call right, gave Girardi lots of leeway, and then said "no more". Can't be much more clear with Girardi that it's time for him to stop. On one hand, players and managers say that getting the call right is the only thing that matters, but then they seem to argue incessantly after crews get together to ensure that the call is right. It kind of begs the question "we're doing everything we can, what else do you want?" "
ReplyDeleteI am a Yankee fan. I was watching the game. This is on Welke, not on Girardi. Questionable mechanics, no other way to put it. And remember, this is the same guy who called a Dodger out when Helton's foot was not 1, not 2, but 3 feet off the base. As an official myself I have immense respect for these guys, but man, he cost the Yankees a close game they needed to win. That's all there is to it.
um what do u mean lose the posting says they won 4-3
DeleteYou're a hack. Anything his arm did had zero effect on Ibanez chasing the ball...stop acting like a drama queen.
Delete"The videos show pretty clearly that Ibanez never stopped trying to make a play on the ball. Therefore Welke's incorrect mechanic had literally no effect on anything as the play developed exactly as it would had he signaled fair initially. "
ReplyDeleteSure. Agreed. And that only means the Yankees won't win their protest. It is STILL poor mechanics. And Girardi had him nailed on that. I agree Girardi should be ejected for vehemently arguing. However, after this AND the very poor call against the Dodgers, this man needs to be held accountable. I am not sure what suitable punishment is, but if you're above the law what or where is the inspiration to do better?
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ReplyDelete"he cost the Yankees a close game they needed to win." WTF??? New York WON the game!!!!
ReplyDelete@Double Down for Donuts: Three things here.
ReplyDeleteFirst, as a Yankees fan, how did you not know they won the game?
Second, if Welke has only missed two calls that you can cite, that isn't even close to requiring "accountability".
Third, the umpires go out there and try to be as close to perfect as they possibly can every game. Sure, they make mistakes every once in a while. But they don't want to make mistakes. So when they do make a mistake, they look at the situation, see what they did wrong, and try to make sure they don't make the same mistake again. That's where the "inspiration to do better" comes from. It comes from themselves and their fellow umpires.
@DDFD
ReplyDeleteHow can he cost the Yankees the game? They won the game. Furthermore, there is a very distinct possibility that his poor mechanics had no effect whatsoever on the outcome of the play.
Jeff Nelson, Bruce Dreckman, Ron Kulpa, Paul Emmel. No nonsense crew right here.
ReplyDeleteWe all know quite clearly that Raul Ibanez is no Willy Mays out in left and whether or not the ball was fair or foul he still would have misplayed it causing the run to score- For some reason there are just those umpires that don't rack up many ejections like Welke, Nauert, Tschida, O'Nora, and many others
ReplyDeleteNelson ejected a cubby
ReplyDeleteWhy should Welke be held accountable? We would all be so lucky to make a mistake like this that had zero effect on the play or the game. Ibanez never even looked in his direction. He saw the ball hit the chalk and chased after it. Umpires all make mistakes (as we all know) but man, we can only wish our mistakes were this minor. and by minor I mean the effect on the play, which again is zero. He didn't cost anybody anything. Some guys bitch about Umpire apologists on here...well this is the opposite with guys grilling him (girardi included) over a non issue.
ReplyDeleteAs noted above, Jeff Nelson has heaved a Cubs player, Steve Clevenger to be specific.
ReplyDeleteI must say, I agree with Curt on this one. Does anyone have any pictures and/or video of Welke's left arm? That would be the only way you could maybe make the case that he had a bad mechanic. Also, Ibanez isn't looking at Welke, he's tracking the ball, so there's no way Ibanez was hindered, even if there was a poor mechanic. It doen't look good if he held both arms up, but, realistically, and luckily for Welke, it has absolutely no effect on this play.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny to me reading comments about people defending a professional umpire for calling a ball foul then fair. Ibanez DID look at him. This was very amateurish. It's very sad.
ReplyDelete@Anon 8:18: No one is defending him. They're simply pointing out that A) Ibanez never stopped making a play on the ball despite looking at Welke's signal, and so the play was not affected and B) no video yet actually shows Welke making an incorrect signal; we can only see one hand up, and one hand up is not a dead ball.
ReplyDelete@anon 8:18 - you won't find that objectivity here....he admitted to Girardi he kicked it per the ESPN highlight, but that is not good enough
ReplyDeleteWow it has been a VERY rough year for Tim Welke. It's interesting to me that both Detroit's radio and TV broadcasters initally called the ball foul (based on Welke's call) then after the hiccup said it was fair. Welke just doesn't like throwing guys out. He is very tough to watch handleing situations. I think it's funny he wouldn't get help on a pulled foot earlier this year but he gets help on this play that was ROYALLY botched. You can NOT call a ball foul then change it to fair.. The bell has been rung you CAN NOT unring the bell.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great lesson for young umpires about timing: have slow timing. Welke was trying to sell the call too quick makes an incorrect mechanic (see dale scott) then gets the call right. Yikes!!
And another thing when you eject someone and you don't want him to follow you: stand still.... it allows a partner to get in between you and the ejected person. Welke looks like a clown the way he handled this and he makes Davidson's job that much more tough to get Girardi away.
@Anon 9:37: You want objectivity? THEN BE OBJECTIVE. Let's use an anology: there's a difference between an eyewitness testimony and actual video evidence. Don't base your conclusions on what other people saw. Base it on what YOU saw. I saw him put a single hand up in the air. A single hand is not a foul ball mechanic. Show me his other hand in the air and I will agree. Until then all I have is the eyewitness testimony, and it is a fact that eyewitness testimony is unreliable.
ReplyDeleteI made this mistake myself over on the Vanover page. I read a user's comments about the Upton ejection and assumed they were true. Later that was thrown into doubt. The mistake I made was assuming the comment was true without verifying it myself. I won't make that same mistake again.
And so what if he did get it wrong? Okay, it was a mistake. And it was a mistake an MLB umpire shouldn't make. But he got lucky: It didn't affect anything. And he'll be careful not to do that again in the future. Just because Girardi got himself thrown out because he was too biased to realize it doesn't change the fact that the call didn't affect Ibanez's attempt to play the ball.
Just for the record so no one gets confused: I do believe he signaled foul even if you can't see his other hand on the replay. It's a logical conclusion to draw given all the information we've had.
ReplyDeleteI'm just making a point that you shouldn't complain someone isn't objective when you yourself aren't actually being totally objective either.
One thing that has always puzzled me, the foul line should be widened to help the umpires. About twenty years ago, the U.S. tennis open, after some bad calls by line umpires, widened the baseline to help the line umpires.
ReplyDeleteHawk-eye on the foul lines? I mean, Selig talks about adding replay to "bullet" shots...
ReplyDeleteGuys, keep your underoos on. I did not see the game because I was on the road driving 13 hours from SC home. I got some incorrect information from someone. And screwing up twice DOES require accountability. If I screw up at my job I am called out for it. The same should go for someone making 100-300K/year doing a fun job (and yes it is fun). I am an official in two sports and expect to hear it even at my level if I screw up.
ReplyDeleteAnd come on, that Helton/Dodgers call was TERRIBLE. And if you read my previous posts you know I am not hypercritical of officials.
"Why should Welke be held accountable? We would all be so lucky to make a mistake like this that had zero effect on the play or the game."
ReplyDeleteI play in a band. I play guitar (as well as a few other instruments). If I am playing a song with my band, out at a bar, and I sing the wrong words to one of our songs or play the wrong chords, it might not screw up the whole night or even the whole song, but I will hear about it from my peers and probably the owner. If you want a job where people will be looking at you on a larger-than-parochial level, expect criticism. Oh, and it ain't like these guys don't make the big bucks. As Marge Simpson said in BEHIND THE SIMPSONS, "Shit or get off the pot."
It is obvious that Welke was straight-lined on the Helton call.
ReplyDeleteI don't see much consistency in "getting the call right". It is hard to believe none of the other umpires saw that Helton was three feet off the base. Yet there is a sinking line drive to CF that on multiple ultra slo-mo replays from multiple angles could have 1) bounced off the fingertip of the glove and up into the pocket or 2) off the turf a fraction of an inch in front of the fingertip. No view is definitive yet the crew confers and reverses the call.
ReplyDeleteANON= LMS1953
@Double Down for Donuts: You don't think that Welke heard about it from his other crew members after the game?
ReplyDelete@LMS1953: They probably did see it. But the calling umpire has to ask for help, the others can't just come in and overrule him. In a four-man crew, with the 1B ump making a call at 1B, unless that umpire just flat-out blinks and misses it you will almost never see a conference on that play because the calling umpire doesn't think he missed it.
For the catch/trap play, that's often a very close play and the calling umpire is often far away from it as it happens. Therefore the umpire is more likely to entertain the possibility that they missed the call and so confer with the rest of the crew.
BAPACop, that makes sense, thanks for the explanation..
DeleteBTW, did you see the MUST C replay where that had Yankee radio. Especially odious is Susyn Waldman saying "oh, look, now Davidson has to get in on the act" (when he comes in like he is supposed to to rodeo clown and does a very good job of it)
LMS1953
""@Double Down for Donuts: You don't think that Welke heard about it from his other crew members after the game?""
ReplyDeleteI'd rather he hear something from Torre, to be honest with you - for the Dodgers/Helton play moreso than anything else. I am not saying suspend him or fine him. At least publicly acknowledge it so that it seems more equitable since if a manager opens his mouth he gets fined. Putting anyone "above the law", so to speak, might make a game a dubious encounter! To me it is a matter of opinion and is subjective, how to enforce such a thing, which is probably why we don't see it very often (though Torre has thrown guys under the bus).
I hate that stupid "accountability" argument. Like they weren't booed by the 40,000 people in the stand. Like girardi didn't give it to him. As if they don't have supervisors that hold them accountable. Like they don't lose chances at playoffs and such for things like this. Don't give me that accountability crap. Umpires are held accountable to mistakes they don't make, let alone ones they do.
ReplyDeleteThey got together on this because joe said he wanted to protest the game, not to talk about the call itself but the protest. Wish we had audio to know if he verbalized anything with the half foul mechanic.
ReplyDelete