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| Who is out first? Advancing R2 or returning R3? Or both? |
Video: Alexi Casilla out after escaping pickle the long way; Umpires confer to determine runner right-of-way
Play: With one out and two on (R2, R3), the batter hits a ground ball to first base, where F3 fires to catcher F2 as R3 breaks for home plate. As F2 fields the low throw, R3 reverses course and heads back toward third base, determined to stay in the rundown long enough for R2 to assume occupation of third base. As R3 nears third base, R2 has arrived and for a brief instant, both R2 and R3 occupy third base. Yet rather than allow F2 to tag him, R3 continues running past third base, up the left field foul line, as R2 holds his position on the base. At this point, F2 tags R2. F2 never tags R3. Chicken or egg? Who is out and who is safe—or are both out? Or both safe? Is B1's placement at second base proper? How shall play proceed? (1 pt)
Answer: R3 is out; R2 is safe; this play was correctly officiated. Because R3 began the play on third base, Rule 7.01 prohibits him from attempting to return to second base. Therefore, when he passes third base and runs down the line, he is either out for leaving his baseline under Rule 7.08(a)(1) or he is out for abandonment under Rule 7.08(a)(2).
Red Herring Rules: R3 is not out under Rule 7.03(a) for he and R2 were never tagged while both runners were attempting to occupy third base. Had there been a tag, R2 would have been out. R2 is likewise not out for passing a preceding runner as in Rule 7.08(h), for both runners having occupied third base at the same time, they are considered to have pulled even. Because R3 was prohibited from returning to second base, with R2 not advancing past the third base bag, R3 could not have been passed. R3 is also not out for confusing the defense and/or making a travesty of the game under Rule 7.08(i) as the defense did not miss out on the opportunity to make a play based on R3's actions after having touched third base, R2 arriving at third and B1 arriving at second base on the rundown. R3 was out for abandonment or leaving his baseline prior to the necessitation of Rule 7.08(i).
Relevant Rules
Rule 7.01: States that after a runner acquires a base and the play is over, he cannot return to a prior base.
Rule 7.03(a): States that two runners may not occupy a base. If tagged, the following runner is out.
Rule 7.08(a)(1): States that a runner is out when he runs out of the baseline (three feet from position to base).
Rule 7.08(a)(2): States that a runner is out when he abandons his effort to run the bases (advance/retreat).
Rule 7.08(h): States that a following runner is out if he passes a preceding runner before such runner is out.
Rule 7.08(i): States that if a runner runs bases in reverse order for the purposes of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game, he is out and "Time" shall be called, as the ball is dead.
Umpiring Lingo: "Preceding" runner refers to R3 (Casilla); "Following" runner refers to R2 (Jamey Carroll)
Fun Fact: "Abandoning" is not officially used in OBR outside 7.08(a)(2).
Pursuant to UEFL Rule 4.f., this Case Play is open for 48 hours from the time of this post (7/22/12 at 1:00AM). Unlike other Case Plays, however, posts will remain visible throughout the submission period. This is a so-called "Group Case Play." Contribute and you could be rewarded with a coveted Case Play point.
Wrap: Twins at Royals, 7/21/12 (Umpires Jeff Kellogg (-cc), Eric Cooper, Marty Foster, D.J. Reyburn)
Long of the short of it. I have R2 safe at third and R3 out for abandonment. Reasoning is that when R3 left third base, all be it in the wrong direction, he gave up his right to the base. Thusly R2 is in possession at the time of F2's tag.
ReplyDeleteI'd get them both. R3 running passed third base and up the left field line and making no attempt to occupy his legally obtained base, is just showing that he doesn't know the rule.
ReplyDeleteI would use the rule 7.08h and say the following runner passed the lead runner before he was put out. He is not immediately out for abandoning his effort.
Therefore R2 is out immediately and R3 then gets hammered for abandoning his effort.
I have them both as out...since R2 "passed" R3 as soon as R3 ran back past 3B, R2 should be declared ou (7.08h). This occurred before R3 was out. R3 THEN "abandoned" his run (7.08a) by heading towards the dugout, and therefore should be declared out as well.
ReplyDeleteSo Arik, you have abandonment instantly upon R3 running past 3B? You must call abandonment a lot then. I agree with the potential for abandonment on that play but there is no way it can be instant. I agree with the previous two posters, R2 is out for being passed as soon as R3 runs past the base, and R3 is out when he enters the dugout for abandoning his effort to run the bases.
ReplyDeleteNow I acknowledge that this call would have ended up getting Gardenhire ejected but it still would have been the correct call unless someone can point out to me some point to this I am missing.
Agreed, two outs.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, two outs.
ReplyDeletebut the following runner never passed the preceding runner. The preceding runner passed the following runner when he ran through the bag. Therefore, I can't see how 7.08h applies.
ReplyDeleteBecause neither runner was forced at the time of the play, had both runners been standing on the bag and were tagged, it would be Casilla who has the right, and carroll would be out.
So, if Reyburn called Casilla out for abandonment (which occurred prior to the tag on Carroll), then keeping Carroll at third is the correct call, because he know legally owns that bag.
However, if he can't explain what rule he used to call Casilla out, then it could be a DP, because Carroll was tagged out prior to Casilla leaving the field of play. (except that before he officially abandonded, Reyburn already called him out).
I think they got this call right.
If you don't call an out based on Rule 7.08(h), would you let the preceding runner retreat safely all the way to second base? That feels wrong.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Josh. I dont get what is that difficult about this play. The umpires got it right. R2 in my opinion never actually passed R3.
ReplyDeleteBoth out. Could call R2 for passing and R3 for abandoning. Or the umpire could say that R2 was tagged out prior to him determining R3 abandoned his position. In that case R2 is not legally occupying 3rd. Either or... Umpires pick.
ReplyDeleteUmpires have this one correct. R2 never passes R3 in the video, but he abandons his effort to return to 3B, forcing himself out.
ReplyDelete-Turducken
This is just like if they were both standing on 3rd base R2 had the legal right to occupy it because R3 headed home. Once they were both at the bag had the both been standing on the bag the umpire should signal R3 out and R2 safe. R3 knowing this rule just ended up abandoning 3rd base. The umpires got this correct
ReplyDeleteanonymous at 1:14 except that R3 had the right to occupy and not R2. R3 would not be out if both were tagged while on the base and the bases were not loaded to start with on this play. So now what's your answer.
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:51
ReplyDeleteOnce R2 occupys the base he forces R3 to advance. R3 no longer has the right to occupy the bag.
Anon 4:48,
ReplyDeleteI disagree. 7.03(a) is concerning two occupying the same base when there is no force play. 7.03(b) deals with the same situation, but the runner was forced. Bottom line is, the preceeding runner entitled to that base until reaching the next base, unless he was forced. If two runners occupy a base, the succeeding runner is always out, if tagged, when there is no force. If forced, it is the preceeding runner who is declared out.
However, I don't believe that rule applies in this situation. This situation had nothing to do with two runners occupying the same base. (Although they did for a fraction of a second ... however, no tag(s) were applied.) Since R3 retreated towards third and touched the bag on the 2B side of the bag (essentially to the right of R2 who was standing on the bag with his body to the foul side of 3B), he has caused R2 to physically pass him. Therefore, there is a live-ball out on R2 for passing. Subsequently, R3 is out for abandoning as in 7.08(a)(2). B3's advance to 2B is legal. Record two outs and the inning is over.
Umm, when did R2 pass R3? R3 gave up and ran back to the dugout - made the decision an easy one for Blue. And note, when he is tagged - he is on the base. So to me, there should be 1 out and these umps got it correct.
ReplyDelete@ano 3:51 I've been to pro school and these kind of things are covered like I states before Once R3 headed home and R2 made it to 3Rd R2 is the legal occupant to 3rd final answer
ReplyDeleteI don't think you listened well at pro school. R2 is only entitled to third if both are touching if it's a force play. It's not. R3 legally occupies the bag until he doesn't.
ReplyDeleteThe real crux of the biscuit is whether R3 going behind third base is considered a passing situation. The runner sets his own base path and, quite frankly, if the runner is not advancing towards the plate, he's *gotta* be considered heading towards second *or* he's abandoned his effort to advance.
The umpires have two choices here -- grab the sh*tty end of the stick or grab the really, really sh*tty end of the stick. I did not see the play when it happened, but my first thought was to call R2 out for passing R3 and then get R3 as well, but I think the spirit and intent of the rules here are served better by calling R3 out for abandonment and allowing R2 to remain at third base. Which it appears the umpires on the game actually did.
Agree with RichMSN. They got it right. Get R3 for abandonment and leave R2 on third base. Although I think they would still be correct for calling R2 out as well for passing because it happened before the abandonment.
ReplyDeleteI'm confused by some of these comments. Rule 7.01 comment states: "If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.". R3 began the play at 3rd, so he MAY NOT return to 2B. He can advance to home, or return to third, but in running past 3rd, he cannot then proceed to second. So my take is that in running past third, he has not attempted to remain at his legally acquired base, and *at that point* has abandoned his efforts to run the bases (i.e. his only options are 3rd or home). Since this occurs before the tag of R2 (now at third), I would think R3 is out for abandonment and R2 is safe, although the ball is still live.
ReplyDelete100% agree with RichMSN...he even stole my "Stick" cliche I was going to use to describe the play.
ReplyDelete-majessa
Someone wasted 3 grand at pro school.
ReplyDeleteSince I dont know what I all need to say to get my 1 point in the standings I need to add that I agree with richmsn. R2 would only be entitled to 3rd if it was a force play. Since it wasnt R3 ocupied it until he abanded it.
ReplyDeleteI would call R3 out for abandonment and since R2 never passed R3 any time during this whole circus, he is entitled to the base without penalty. Had he broke towards home, maybe a different story.
ReplyDeleteThe umpires call is correct. R2 advances legally to 3rd. R2 is out due to abandonment.
ReplyDeleteR3 is out. Darn auto spell.
DeleteDavidson, who has been quiet of late,has ejected Luke Hocheaver for intentionally throwing at Mike Trout. The Angels are winning 8-0 and have hit Royals batters twice. I don't really like Davidson, but good toss here. Ned Yost was not ejected because warnings were not issued.
ReplyDelete